Hatz Biplane Association

I really appreciate all the comments on the wing options.

Thank You,

Bwwillis

Hi Bernie,

Welcome to the Hatz community! Just our thoughts to number and style of ailerons as well as LE planking:

First of all: If you really want to look it like a Waco, then you have to build the 4 ailerons (ther is only the Waco CRG, which has only 2 ailerons on the bottom wing)! The first Waco with corrucated aluminum ailerons was the QCF (as far as I beleave), the model 10, ASO or ATO had fabric covered ailerons.

As we like the Waco designs, it was clear which way to go for us. We have flown in Mike Foot's beautiful Hatz Classic, which features 4 aluminum ailerons and can say that it is very smooth on the aileron control. As far as we know, most 2 aileron Hatz's are not lighter than the 4 aileron type.

Concerning the LE planking, we choosed 1/16" birch plywood in conjunction with our own made solid wood front member, which joins top and bottom. Aluminum in the proper thickness might be a bit lighter, but very prone to buckling and damage. We made even special 3D plywood formings for the LE tip planking (they are available by the way...). We would suggest plywood in any case!

Hope this helps, so far the input from overseas..

Kind regards
Hans & Sam, H.C.#78, Switzerland

I have heard that plywood L.E. looks better over time than aluminum and adds greater structural strength.

Nick

Hi Bernie,

I thought I'd take your post and offer some comments...

[color=#0000FF][i]While at Brodhead this summer I noticed several options for construction. [/i][/color]
Well, it is Experimental so the options are whatever you choose to do (within reason of course)

[color=#0000FF][i]It was suggested that the ailerons on the bottom wings would lend authentiticy to some Waco models [/i][/color]
I think this is a personal preference item, so take it as you choose.
[color=#0000FF][i]
as well as decrease weight and the potential viberation of the connecting strut between the upper and lower ailerons.[/i] [/color]
Never heard of any aileron vibration issue. Maybe others can chime in here if they have heard of it.

[color=#0000FF][i]Most of the Hatzes showed fabric covered ailerons and some hinge lines below and aft of the leading edge (friese type).[/i][/color]
I didn't make it to Brodhead this year, but based on the pictures I've seen it looks like there were six Hatz's in attendance... all of which were CB-1s which, by design, have fabric covered ailerons. It doesn't look like any Classics made it this year. As for friese-style ailerons, a few builders have chosen to go that route. On the CB-1, some builders have chosen to extend the ailerons to the wing tip while others keep them per plans. Builder's choice - the freedom of being experimental. As for fabric vs. aluminum, while one could get into a discussion of weight & performance, I think this is largely a question of what "look" you want. When Billy Dawson built the Classic he was going for a more "Waco-like" appearance, hence the aluminum ailerons.


[color=#0000FF][i]Reviewing the plans for both the CB-1 and the Classic I've noted the difference in the leading edges. The Classic shows a complex length wise member connecting the leading edge of the ribs and a thin plywood covering while the CB-1 shows a simple rectangular piece and aluminum cover. [/i][/color]
Yes, When Billy Dawson built the first Classic he made several changes which includes the leading edge. While the piece that connects the rib tips may look complex, I believe it can be done without too much effort using a router and table saw (I have yet to build those myself). He also added false nose ribs in between the full ribs to improve the strength of the leading edge - this is not the case on the CB-1 leading edge. Both styles of leading edge (plywood & aluminum) have long histories in other aircraft (both experimental and certificated) and are perfectly acceptable. I'm more of a wood builder than a metal guy, so to me building a plywood leading edge seems easier than an aluminum one, but that's me and someone else may have the opposite opinion.

Hope that helps.

Thanks for helping be clarify the issue. I'll be specific here. Before I start building ribs it would be good for me to understand more about some wing building options.

What are the disadvantages or advantages of building the wings with two longer ailerons on the lower wings instead of the four in the plans?

What are the disadvantages or advantages of building the ailerons with corrigated aluminum skins as in the Classic plans or the fabric, wood ribed type on the CB-1 plans?

The Classic plans show a plywood leading edge. What advantage does this have over the aluminum leading edge of the CB-1 plans?

You want input but you never asked a question :?:

While at Brodhead this summer I noticed several options for construction. It was suggested that the ailerons on the bottom wings would lend authentiticy to some Waco models as well as decrease weight and the potential viberation of the connecting strut between the upper and lower ailerons. The pilot of one example of this configuration said he had added too much aileron and would only extend the ailerson one rib space instead of two toward the fusalage.

Most of the Hatzes showed fabric covered ailerons and some hinge lines below and aft of the leading edge (friese type).

Reviewing the plans for both the CB-1 and the Classic I've noted the difference in the leading edges. The Classic shows a complex length wise member connecting the leading edge of the ribs and a thin plywood covering while the CB-1 shows a simple rectangular piece and aluminum cover. I know that if I ever leave the runway and hit a fence post or even some brush, which leading edge I'd rather repair.

I need to decide on these details before making ribs. I'd appreciate your input.

Thank You,

Bwwillis