Warner engine

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Re: Warner engine

by jdgleitz » Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:52 pm

That is interesting information. As I mentioned, I thought it would take somewhere around 15 lbs, and by calculation, the tail post should hold about 15 lbs of lead. If shot was used, it probably would be considerably less, unless it was melted inside the tube. I wasn't sure I wanted to make the weight permanent though. We'll have to wait hear what form the lead was in.

Re: Warner engine

by mtaylor » Thu Feb 14, 2013 1:10 pm

I was thinking that Mehlin had told me lengthened the fuselage by 11"...because that was the length that his workshop size allowed him to stretch it. Sounds like it measures out to 8", though.

Re: Warner engine

by dougm » Thu Feb 14, 2013 12:53 pm

Bill Rusk wrote: I looked for lead in the tail area and could not find any and so thus reported, but I later found out that Mehlin had pored it into the rudder post. So it DOES have lead in the tail to balance it. I will look through my notes to see if I can figure out how much when I have time. Thanks for your patience gents.

Bill
Aha! the plot thickens.... 8-) Looks like Jackal was on to something when he mentioned lead in the tubes....

Re: Warner engine

by Bill Rusk » Thu Feb 14, 2013 12:34 pm

Guys,

I am sorry I have not been on the site for a while. I have been very busy at work and have a few more days to go before I see the light of day. I will try to help with what I can as soon as I have a free moment. I looked for lead in the tail area and could not find any and so thus reported, but I later found out that Mehlin had pored it into the rudder post. So it DOES have lead in the tail to balance it. I will look through my notes to see if I can figure out how much when I have time. Thanks for your patience gents.

Bill

Re: Warner engine

by mtaylor » Sun Feb 10, 2013 4:28 pm

Don't know what he did for top wing height, but Mehlin did put a door on the front cockpit for easier entry.

Re: Warner engine

by Jackal » Sat Feb 09, 2013 3:37 pm

That is going to look good. Like I said, We'll all be watching.........

Now, thinking back in regard to raising the top wing higher than plans, I think that was something Lorin Wilkinson said he did on the "Snooty Hatz". I do specifically recall Mehlin talking about the small cockpit openings and other stuff.

Sorry for the initial misinformation and good luck.

I assume you are familiar with Harman Dickerson at Fulton, MO airport (FTT), an authority and source on all things Warner?

Re: Warner engine

by jdgleitz » Sat Feb 09, 2013 11:55 am

With just a little eyeballing and basic math estimates, it looks like it would take about 15 lb in the tail to make the empty weight CG location exactly the same as shown on the Classic plans. This is just substituting the Warner for the O-320 and adding an oil tank and oil located on the top longhorns behind the firewall.

Of course there are many other variables in each airplane, and it could be the final weight and balance ends up within tolerance without the added weight. I will just have move forward and make adjustments as things come together. This being my first homebuilt, and the engine alone providing plenty of challenge, I will stick to the plans for the most part. It probably won't look quite as period as Mehlins, and I certainly don't have the skills he most likely did.

Here are a couple of pictures of the engine placed at the front of the fuselage.
IMG_3615.JPG
IMG_3623.JPG

Re: Warner engine

by dougm » Fri Feb 08, 2013 7:15 pm

Jackal wrote:I think he said he raised the top wing also to make it proportioned more like a larger plane.
When I visited Bill we checked this out as well. We pulled out the CB-1 plans and a tape measure and 'lo and behold it is built to plans. Top wing height is standard Hatz.
Jackal wrote:If someone has examined the plane and says there's no weight there, and can determine the tailpost, rudder spar, etc. is not filled with lead, then how can that be argued. If it aint there, it aint there.


Yes, Bill confirmed this for me. I couldn't tell you if the weight had been there in the past and removed before Bill bought it or if it was never there to begin with. What I CAN say is that it wasn't there when Bill bought it.

Re: Warner engine

by Jackal » Fri Feb 08, 2013 2:59 pm

Congratulations on your ambition to have an actual Warner powered Hatz. I had considerable interest in the same, as I think the grease blowing back on your goggles would be so cool. Due to the complications with the weight and balance (primarily balance) and the fact my fuselage was done I chickened out. (I'm doing the Rotec thing.)

For what its worth: I spoke to Mehlin at the last Brodhead he attended (can't remember if its been 1 or 2 years now????????)
I spoke with him about the extending of his fuselage to balance the Warner and he said he did indeed extend it (seems to me he agreed on the 8" figure I've often heard) but it was more for aesthetics. He said he wanted it to look like an old plane and "not an acro-sport" (nothing against the acro-sport, just quoting Mehlin) or some new biplane. For this reason he stretched it out and the longerons run straight from the aft cockpit station to the tailpost. It does not have the additional bend near the leading edge of the H-Stab. Although I recall him saying it did make things a little tight back there width-wise. I'm actually builing a CB-1 - maybe all the Classics are as he described his in this regard. He said he intentionally made the cockpit openings as small as possible so the ratio of the size of the plane to the size of the cockpit opening would be more like that of a much larger Waco. I think he said he raised the top wing also to make it proportioned more like a larger plane. In regard to the 8" extension of the fuselage I specifically recall him saying he did it primarily for aesthetics and he chose 8" (or whatever length he chose) because "that was the longest that would fit in his workshop". I"m certain I recall him saying that even with that he still had to add a bunch of weight to the back.

If someone has examined the plane and says there's no weight there, and can determine the tailpost, rudder spar, etc. is not filled with lead, then how can that be argued. If it aint there, it aint there.

Either way, I think Mehlin succeeded wonderfully in his attempt to keep the propotions right because his plane was/is majestic in appearance, far beyond simply what the round engine does for it. Not to mention he was just a really great guy who was willing to talk to and help anyone. His enthusiasm for the building of airplanes................. well, he was a neat guy.

One thing we know is that IT CAN BE DONE. If someone is determined to build a Warner powered Hatz it is possible. Since I'm not building a "proven plan" in that I'm not using an O-200 on my CB-1 I can't be certain how the CG will fall out and so opted for the more easily adjusted H-Stab and also put "hard points" in the very aft fuselage so that I have a place to put weight later if I find it necessary without having to weld them in after being covered, or find some other inconvenient way to add weight or build in 2 battery boxes, etc.

Good luck with the Warner, I'm sure we'll all be watching you.

Re: Warner engine

by dougm » Sat Feb 02, 2013 3:16 pm

Couple more pics:

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